units 1 and 2
Jan. 7th, 2010 08:56 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
Unit 1
Nouns (abbreviated "n"). The main message of this unit is that while English has both "qualifier noun" and "noun qualifier" word order, Chinese only has "qualifier noun" word order. The qualifier is always before the noun. The other information is how to group nouns: noun noun may be "qualifier noun" or it might be "noun and noun" and there's no way to distinguish between the two except by context or convention; noun noun noun is always grouped as nn qualifying n or it may be (n and n) qualifying n; 4 nouns together may be nn qualifying nn or may be nn and nn. (I think nnnn can also be n and n and n and n, but perhaps not for the purposes of this book.)
Unit 2
This unit starts to talk about nouns acting as adverbs. So noun verb word sequences could be subject verb, or it could be adverbified-noun verb. I read the English grammar description and think 'huh?' then I read the Chinese examples and think 'but of course, that's obvious!' Then I read the English description and go 'huh?' again. LOL!
Section 2.2 is called "Optional precision" and talks about lack of plurals in nouns and lack of tense in Chinese. Barnes says, interestingly,
(Chinese, "literal translation"):
城闕輔三秦 The walls of the capital look down over the Three Qin;
風煙望五津 wind and mist gaze afar towards the Five Fords.
與君離別意 Feelings at saying goodbye to you
同是宦游人 share being official wanderers.
海內存知己 China contains true friends
天涯若比鄰 the ends of the earth are like the house next door.
無為在歧路 Let's not be, at the parting of the ways,
兒女共沾巾 children weeping together
Barnes then fills in for meaning for the reader to illustrate his point.
From the walls of the capital we look down over the Three Qin;
through wind and mist we gaze afar towards the Five Fords.
My feelings as I say goodbye to you
are that we share being official wanderers (which brings us together rather than separating us).
While China contains true friends
the ends of the earth will be like the house next door.
So let's not be, at the parting of the ways,
children weeping together.
The excessive assignment of subject, especially, seems to me to ground the poem in a very human centric western fashion, rather than making use of the ambiguity as part of the artistry of the poem. Even in English, walls can be personified to look down on things ...
I think it teaches new learners of classical poetry bad habits, force fitting Chinese poetry into English thinking and culture. Not to mention his choices in filling in the ambiguities feel 'off' in some nebulous way, even though analytically I think he's correct. I have issues with the fact he turns 海內 into China and 鄰 into the house next door. To me, that's not a literal translation of those words, but that's quibbling.
Nouns (abbreviated "n"). The main message of this unit is that while English has both "qualifier noun" and "noun qualifier" word order, Chinese only has "qualifier noun" word order. The qualifier is always before the noun. The other information is how to group nouns: noun noun may be "qualifier noun" or it might be "noun and noun" and there's no way to distinguish between the two except by context or convention; noun noun noun is always grouped as nn qualifying n or it may be (n and n) qualifying n; 4 nouns together may be nn qualifying nn or may be nn and nn. (I think nnnn can also be n and n and n and n, but perhaps not for the purposes of this book.)
Unit 2
This unit starts to talk about nouns acting as adverbs. So noun verb word sequences could be subject verb, or it could be adverbified-noun verb. I read the English grammar description and think 'huh?' then I read the Chinese examples and think 'but of course, that's obvious!' Then I read the English description and go 'huh?' again. LOL!
Section 2.2 is called "Optional precision" and talks about lack of plurals in nouns and lack of tense in Chinese. Barnes says, interestingly,
The problem is not that the Chinese language cannot clearly express tense, number and person, but that it is not obliged to, ... In fact, when the poems were written they probably caused few problems to contemporary readers because the latter would have been familiar with the kind of things that would be said in a poem written on a particular occasion. In other words, the real difficulty with Chinese poetry is not so much the language as the concepts and images, and especially the conventions, forming the cultural tradition with which the poems were written.I think Barnes is correct in saying the poems contemporary readers would have no difficulty but I think he's wrong in proceeding to then fill in the blanks like an English writer would. He uses the following poem (with some word substitutions on lines 1 and 8) to make his point
(Chinese, "literal translation"):
城闕輔三秦 The walls of the capital look down over the Three Qin;
風煙望五津 wind and mist gaze afar towards the Five Fords.
與君離別意 Feelings at saying goodbye to you
同是宦游人 share being official wanderers.
海內存知己 China contains true friends
天涯若比鄰 the ends of the earth are like the house next door.
無為在歧路 Let's not be, at the parting of the ways,
兒女共沾巾 children weeping together
Barnes then fills in for meaning for the reader to illustrate his point.
From the walls of the capital we look down over the Three Qin;
through wind and mist we gaze afar towards the Five Fords.
My feelings as I say goodbye to you
are that we share being official wanderers (which brings us together rather than separating us).
While China contains true friends
the ends of the earth will be like the house next door.
So let's not be, at the parting of the ways,
children weeping together.
The excessive assignment of subject, especially, seems to me to ground the poem in a very human centric western fashion, rather than making use of the ambiguity as part of the artistry of the poem. Even in English, walls can be personified to look down on things ...
I think it teaches new learners of classical poetry bad habits, force fitting Chinese poetry into English thinking and culture. Not to mention his choices in filling in the ambiguities feel 'off' in some nebulous way, even though analytically I think he's correct. I have issues with the fact he turns 海內 into China and 鄰 into the house next door. To me, that's not a literal translation of those words, but that's quibbling.